G-i-P Report: Lindir vs. Elrond dialog (H1 EE)!
Thanks to the user neo1989 (see the Elendili forum) we found the proper form of the Sindarin dialog between Lindir and Elrond in The Hobbit: The Unexpected Journey (Extended Edition). It is as follows:
L: Taenen bar-en-abed athar glaind, nevui penim miruvor. Manann ingadh namen i-darthathar?
E: Mennar úno.Subtitle: ‚The kitchen is under enormous strain, we are almost out of wine. How long do you think they will be with us?’
Subtitle: ‚That has yet to be decided’ (lit. ‚They are not going anywhere’).
*taenen ‚extended’: pp. form of *taen- v. ‚extend’ (?); cf. √TAJ (1) ‚extend, lenghten’ [A Gatway to Sindarin (GtS), p. 313]
*bar-en-abed n. ‚kitchen (lit. house of the cooking)’: *abed ‚cooking’, inf. form of *ab- ‚cook’ (?); compare with Bar-en-Danwedh ‚House of the Ransom (S, UT); cf. √AP (1) ‚food’ (GtS 295)
athar prep. ‚beyond, across’ (GtS 240)
glaind, pl. of gland ‚boundary’ (VT 42:8, GtS 257)
*nevui adj. pref. ‚near’; cf. nef, nev- ‚hither, near, on this side’ (GtS 276)
*penim v. ‚we are lacking’; personal form of *pen- ‚to be lacking’ + -m ‚we’; compare with pen (1) prep. ‚without, lacking, -less’ (GtS 280)
miruvor n. ‚wine’ (in the movies David Salo decided that this Quenya term from Valinor would mean ‚wine’ in Middle-earth)
*manann adv. ‚how long?’; from man ‚how’ + and-, -ann ‚long’
ingadh ‚you guess’, personal form of *ing- ‚guess’; cf. √IŊK ‚guess’ (GtS 299)
namen ‚with us’
i ‚that’
darthathar ‚they will stay’
mennar ?
úno ?
Help us to decipher the rest of the dialog!
Compare it with our guess made more than a week ago (here).
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Kategorie wpisu: Filmy: Hobbit i WP, G-i-P Report, In Westron (English), Lingwistyka
11 Komentarzy do wpisu "G-i-P Report: Lindir vs. Elrond dialog (H1 EE)!"
kemmuel, dnia 29.12.2013 o godzinie 18:21
IMHO:
1. taenen may be taen „hight” and -en i.e. possessive suffix for 1sg,, meaning ‚your (lit. my) highness.’
2. manann = man + and i.e. ‚how long’
3. mennar – it might be plural form of verb men-/menta- (?), uno – „be not” (?)
kemmuel, dnia 29.12.2013 o godzinie 18:33
BTW isn’t it funny that under ‚Mennar uno’ we see ‚They are not going anywhere’ which I think is the right translation (in Sindarin something like ‚won’t/don’t let them go / they will not leave’), while in the movie it had been altered to ‚That has yet to be decided’?
Galadhorn, dnia 29.12.2013 o godzinie 20:30
Kemmuel, thank you for your notes.
S. P., dnia 29.12.2013 o godzinie 23:35
Maybe _úno_ contains *_naw_ (III.) from CE nâ-bê/bâ, *nâsê (*ono-s-?). Compare Q _návë, nassë_ ‚being’ and S _taw ~ do_ ‚to that place’ (PE19:52) & the toponymic nouns _raw, rhaw_ (Etym:382, ctn. CE *-bâ).
Of course just by looking at it, one is also reminded of _naw_ ‚idea’, _ûn_ ‚creature’ and the recently surfaced adverbial _-o_ [VT50]! But I would certainly expect _mennar ú naw_ (*’no idea do they communicate’?) to appear wholly ‚uncontracted’.
Galadhorn, dnia 30.12.2013 o godzinie 9:49
S.P., that sounds very interesting. I hope David Salo will explain these forms on his blog one day. The last part of the dialog seems to be very idiomatic.
cerebrum, dnia 30.12.2013 o godzinie 19:24
Hmmm, why is _mirovor_ not lenited to _viruvor_ (cf. _penim vast_ in PE/17:144)? And shouldn’t _*ingadh_ rather be _*ingodh_ (cf. _galodh_ in PE/17:132)?
Elrond’s answer is indeed quite obscure. Maybe it simply means „they go nowhere” based on the script. Btw, have you noticed that _úno_ is written with a capital initial letter?
Galadhorn, dnia 30.12.2013 o godzinie 20:24
Yes, Cerebrum, I have noticed it. But I have a guess that it shouldn’t be capitalized. But maybe I am mistaken? Who knows. I hope D. Salo will throw some light on these dialogs.
cerebrum, dnia 30.12.2013 o godzinie 21:40
I mean it is interesting that „ú” is capitalized in the original script. Of course, there is great chance that it is indeed a typo (or they simply did not find small „ú” on the keyboard :D), but I do not rule out the possibility that it may be a proper noun or a new sentence.
Galadhorn, dnia 30.12.2013 o godzinie 23:02
A very similar úno can be found in the Sindarin dialogs from H:DoS!
Tauriel! Dartho! Ú-no hono. Ho hebo cuin.
There ú-no means probably ‚be not’
cerebrum, dnia 31.12.2013 o godzinie 0:24
Yes, that crossed my mind too, but neither „be not” nor „is not” make much sense in the above case, especially if it means „they are not going anywhere”.
Emrhys, dnia 23.01.2014 o godzinie 3:53
i think it is actualy the nowhere
únmo -> úno maybe? since Salo used mo for where in the sentence : Mellonnen mo evinedh?
and mennar is clearly the reconstructed Q. menta- send
which will undoubtedly becomme menna- in sindarin
(see anta -> anna-; lanta -> danna-)
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